The MARKETER

Converting Clicks to Customers with Dave Greenley

February 19, 2024 Monte Clark Season 1 Episode 5
The MARKETER
Converting Clicks to Customers with Dave Greenley
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Embark on a transformative exploration of digital marketing success with the indomitable Dave Greenley, a seasoned veteran who pivoted from real estate prowess to mastering the digital marketing realm as a sought-after consultant and fractional CMO. This episode is a treasure trove of insights into the ever-evolving marketing funnels, where we unravel the progression from the tangible touch of direct mail to the meticulous targeting of today's Google ads and landing pages. With anecdotes from his own experience, Dave highlights the revolutionary impact of achieving a harmonious message-to-market match, demonstrated through a case study of a flourishing cosmetic dentist's campaign. We take you behind the curtain to decode what it truly takes for small businesses and entrepreneurs to stay relevant and thrive in the fast-paced digital marketing ecosystem.

Prepare to harness the power of a well-crafted ad campaign, as we share the secrets of testing your business idea's mettle through the crucible of targeted advertising, especially on platforms like Facebook teeming with potential customers. Discover the art of capturing interest and converting it into tangible results with compelling ad copy, while ensuring your landing page is armed with the persuasive might of social proof. I'll guide you through the fundamental metrics that serve as your campaign's compass, leading you to make informed decisions about managing leads with finesse, whether you keep it close to home or confidently outsource.

As we weave through the tapestry of marketing strategies, we address the real struggles that solopreneurs and startups face, from the necessity of personal interactions in closing deals to the emotional toll of marketing efforts that don't convert. We delve into the subtle dance between empathy and commerce, showing you how to forge genuine connections and drive sales without sacrificing authenticity. Our conversation is a blend of strategic marketing wisdom and heartfelt advice, offering you the tools to navigate the intricate web of today's digital marketing with confidence and a human touch. Join us for this episode, where Dave Greenley illuminates the path from marketing novice to maestro.

Want more? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpz3MJtB5wkuzoESfGd9xVw

Speaker 1:

My first post back said um, I've decided that posting on LinkedIn is useless, okay, and then I walked through why, and I had more people comment on that post than I've had in a long time. And it's because so many people feel exactly that way.

Speaker 2:

You are listening to the marketer podcast for modern day marketing professionals.

Speaker 1:

Dave Greenley, welcome to the show. It's awesome to have you. I appreciate you taking some time. I know that we've been friends for some time. We've been doing business together for some time. Um, how I got involved with you was on LinkedIn, and it's pretty much that's how I get involved with most people. But, um, one of the things that you and I talked about when we first got involved together was about doing marketing funnels and specific pages to sell specific products, and that was of great interest to me, and I have never met anybody with more of a background on that than you.

Speaker 2:

So um, that's the truth.

Speaker 1:

So I really appreciate you coming on the show today. That's exactly what I want to talk to you about. But first let's get into a little bit about your background. I'd love to hear why don't you just give the audience a little sense of who you are, what you do? That's apart from my intro that we did.

Speaker 2:

Sure, um, you know, currently I'm just a marketing consultant for fractional CMO. Um, how I got here? I will give the compressed version. I guess you could say I started a real estate business in 2005-ish somewhere in there, and I learned very quickly that the more people that you talk to, the more deals you are going to do. I had a mentor. He had asked me. He said so how many offers did you make? And I said three, thinking I was like this is awesome. He said, oh, today, and I said no, this month. He just looked at me and said you don't have a business. Uh, you have. So from that point forward, this is probably 2006, somewhere in there. Um, I just want to ask you to be able to figure out how to talk to as many people as humanly possible. Um, that grew into direct mail to segmented 800 numbers.

Speaker 2:

So every mail or whether it was a postcard, letter, et cetera would be segmented to a specific 800 number with a recorded message and I learned that lesson because I was sending them to my cell phone, um, and I just learned that I would miss deals If it came straight to my phone, as opposed to having an automated system that would filter, qualify, disqualify et cetera, have people leave messages. If it was somebody who wanted to do a deal with, I would call them back and that's what they um. 2009 rolls around the great recession and that was my transferable skill set Again was a real estate business was plummeting um, hemorrhaging money left and right, but what I could do was tell local businesses owners that I could get their phone to ring Um and I went straight into a digital agency, I think 2010,.

Speaker 2:

Um, the first plan was a cosmetic dentist. He was already doing a couple million dollars a year and within the first three months, his marketing manager was like I don't know what you guys are doing, but they're having their best month and their slowest time of year ever. So it's just kind of been a run. Ever since then, I guess you will. So I've been an agency owner, freelancer, most notably 2018 to 2021 ish. Um, if you're watching somebody on the internet right now eating and devouring all of their content and potentially seeing a lot of their ads. There's a. There's a good chance that I worked them from 2018 to 2020, some of the biggest names in internet marketing. Um, so yeah, these days, just putting all that skill set to use as a fractional CMO to console them.

Speaker 1:

That's so awesome. Um, like I said, you've got an extensive background and it's a super interesting background. I want to dig into it a little bit. Sure Okay so you know, I know that um a lot of people that listen to my show are entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, um startup business owners, you know, and so they're wearing a lot of hats. They may have um an expertise on some things. Marketing sales may not be two of them. Right, how did you get, uh the dentist, all of those leads and all of that new business?

Speaker 2:

Well, um, gotta remember what when the date was, so this was late 2009 or 2010.

Speaker 2:

And this, honestly, was as simple as getting very specific. So for me, 800 numbers, postcards, 800 numbers Uh, it is the exact same thing as a keyword to Google ad and a landing page. It's the exact same thing. So, when we get into specificity, you know, the person who's looking for veneers maybe isn't the exact same person who's looking for um, what am I trying to say implants? They're not looking for implants, they're looking for veneers. So sending that, sending that traffic to a specific page, was incredibly simple. We whipped up good enough copy to be able to um. Back then we were measuring if you got calls directly from the landing page and or the ad. We would track all of the phone calls and we got pretty good where we were generating calls directly from the ads based on again, if I was a gambling man, it's, it's specificities, because the message to market match was incredibly tight and then the offer was good.

Speaker 1:

So it was largely ad driven. Oh, 100%, yeah, sorry I should have started that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, 100% Sorry, cade advertising yes.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so now let's fast forward up to kind of today.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

If you were going to now duplicate that for any dentist, let's say, would you still be focused on ads today, or do you have another approach?

Speaker 2:

That's a really good question, um, so, yes, I would ultimately want to get to paid traffic, just because that would give us the most consistent results over a long period of time. This is, you know, throw an asterisk on that however you want to, but consistently speaking over the course of time, paid traffic is going to give you the most consistent and high volume results. Um, but having said that, no, if I, if I got onto a dentist, I'd probably start with their email list before I ever spent a dollar. I would want to segment their email list, kind of figure out who they are, where they came from, um, what that last interaction or relationship looked like, and then I would try to where do I want to take that prospect next? So, as a Nicole prospect, I've never talked to her as a past client that I did business with.

Speaker 2:

So, depending on who that is, I'm going to try to create offers, depending on the segment of their list, just to move that prospect to the next place. Does that make sense? So, what that does for us, uh, I'm trying to figure out how much I should. So we got to figure out how aware the marketplace is right. So, if it works from a prospect all the way to a previous client. I can then take the entire campaign structure and put it online and I can go to the most unaware person has no idea who I am no idea that they even have a problem potentially all the way to the most sophisticated person in the market who knows that there's a problem knows they're looking for a solution and they're just trying to figure out who to do business with.

Speaker 2:

Like a lot of times, we can create that with an email list before we launch ads. So, but ultimately, yes, I'm trying to get to ads.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so does the strategy start with an email list, and should every business have a strategy to develop an email list?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yep, explain to me why. Let me say this Explain to me why and explain to me how your average business does that right. So let's take the dentist. You know they. You know you can target a group of people that you would suppose would be of need of veneers. You know they're probably this age and up, are more highly likely this income, so much and so forth. You know are going to afford veneers, blah, blah, blah. But let's say you're a business consultant or you know some fractional service provider somehow, or you don't have a product per se. Like you know, veneers are a specific product. They're going to solve a very specific problem.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But the person who maybe as a coach or a consultant or a fractional, maybe there's all kinds of different problems with it. How's, how do the you approach list building for through email?

Speaker 2:

Yep. So let's just assume that this person is some sort of solopreneur, whether it's a marketing agency owner, a CMO, a fractional sales person. Whatever the case, maybe they got to go drum up business. I would get pretty specific about the problem that I saw and then I would put together some sort of content that helps solve that problem. You can do this in. You know you could whip up. In the old days it was like a white paper. These days it could be like a 40 minute webinar.

Speaker 2:

Whatever the case may be, you have to have something of value that sort solves the problem that person is looking for. So that's that's list building one on one like hey, I have this thing, if you want to give me your email address and we'll do that transaction. You also have to take in the account where that person is on their journey. If you are just getting started, you want to get as close to the conversion hole as humanly possible. It takes far less marketing effort and power to be able to make a good offer to somebody who's ready to make a decision. So I would start with hey, if you are filling the blank and you are looking to accomplish this without this headache, I can do that for you, and I would get incredibly granular about what that looks like.

Speaker 1:

So is that you know again and I'm going to pump you with all kinds of these questions because I think it's things that I would want to know, you know, and I think it's also things that the audience are listening to this are going to want to know what comes first. Am I putting an ad out there that's saying if this is your problem, I have a solution? And then you're bringing them to what? Maybe a website? And then you're trying to get them to sign up for something that puts them on their email list or what's kind of the workflow there?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So if we're talking about just specifically, email list, I really want to answer this question from somebody who is like should I even do ads? If I was just starting to do ads, I would make a direct offer. So the stuff that you see of like, you know, if this is you, this is the offer, and an offer has a whole lot of things involved in it. But if you're just making a direct offer, if I'm just starting to get off of the ground and I don't have an email list, that is the type of ad I'm running because I want to validate whether or not the market wants what I got.

Speaker 2:

So if you put out an offer and you run ads to it and nobody responds to it, there's no sense in building out the rest of the campaign because they don't want your offer. So figure out how to make as good of a direct offer to a ready, willing and able buyer first and then work backwards. Does that make sense? To answer your question from a technical perspective? So if I have an ad, it's out there on whatever, whatever medium you want to use Facebook, google, whatever the case may be, that ad is going to take them to a page that's going to further solidify why making a book call of me is a good decision, and then I'm just booking a call.

Speaker 1:

So let's put it into real world, let's maybe use what I do that was selfishly, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So today I want to offer a podcast service kind of a start to finish podcast to solar preneurs, entrepreneurs with small businesses, so on and so forth, and I want to let's just say it's $14.97 a month right. All done for you podcasting. So you're saying that I would make an ad on the Google ad network and I would select probably some channels where I think those people exist, like LinkedIn.

Speaker 2:

Correct? I would probably. Yes, I might even do this on a different network like Facebook as opposed to Google, but that's just personal preference, because I don't understand.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I'd like to investigate that. So why not Google? Why Facebook instead?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, again, this is 100% personal preference. I just know it and understand it better. It gives me a little bit more depth to be able to do a little bit more story telling. That's it.

Speaker 1:

Yep, Okay, so is that? I mean there's billions of users on Facebook?

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

You're probably guaranteed that your target market is somewhere on there.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So what's the average or what's the amount of money that you feel like I would have to put into that ad campaign to discover whether or not there is a market for my service?

Speaker 2:

Three to 500 bucks.

Speaker 1:

That's it.

Speaker 2:

That's it how long A month Now, if you have more money than that when we're done with this podcast.

Speaker 1:

We're going to be starting my ad campaign.

Speaker 2:

You can do this with a bigger budget and you can test more variations and all that sort of stuff, but you have to remember all we're trying to do is all we are trying to do is validate an offer, that's it.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

So you know you can get as low at well. Again, I am not the media buying expert, please understand. I'm a strategist and I don't push buttons for a living and all that sort of stuff. So please take that for what I'm about to say. You can get as low as like three to five bucks a day. So if you wanted to go crazy and to do like $20 a day, which would be $600 a month, you could run four variations of that offer and we would have enough data to get an idea of oh hey, it looks like the market's leading this direction. And then from there, as you know, our job on the marketing side unless we are directly responsible for selling something on the front end. But most of the time I'm working with people who either just want a tremendous amount of brand awareness or they want people on the telephone for their people to be able to build business. So our job is to just get the phone call. You know what I'm saying. So like it's not going to solve this problem?

Speaker 2:

Yes, that was, but it will absolutely get people on the phone.

Speaker 1:

Well, that was going to be my next question. What assets do I need to have off of the ad? Can it just simply be? If you're interested in this service or product, call here. Or is it a calendar link Sign up.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So what you're going to want to do is just get a little bit of social proof and credibility. So you have just made a claim out there on the internet, right, that you can do. Hopefully we've done some magic and we are getting a little more. We're getting a little deeper into the emotional prospect, as opposed to just making a top level claim. So anyway, once we get them on that page, we want to do a little bit of social proof and credibility. So look at what I have done. This is where testimonials come into place. This is where case studies come into place. If you can get somebody else edifying your process, that's even better, but somewhere they want to be able to see that you know what you're talking about. So even a little bit of a demonstration would be awesome. That make sense.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Because if you're making a very direct offer, you're making a direct offer to somebody who's pretty sophisticated, they know the market. They're just trying to make a decision.

Speaker 1:

So you would want to have a single page website that would explain in detail what the offer is, what you get. Have some testimonials there. Is this your typical funnel page?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Kind of like what they're doing on click funnels and stuff like that.

Speaker 2:

You can use any software. Yes, yes, it is.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I know I'm using that Probably a lot of people have heard of that. But yeah, you can use Kajabi or anything that does these kind of things. So, yeah, and then so, after you run the test, so you've got, let's just say you did two ads. Let's say you drop, you put 300 bucks into an ad for a month. Then what If you've said, okay, yeah, people are going to want to buy this. That's based on people's you giving them something, correct? Or is it just based on a clicks to an ad? What is it?

Speaker 2:

So we're going to want to see how many people actually schedule the call. So, of the dollars we invested, what is our cost per call? Hopefully we're going to get at least one call out of five to 600 bucks. Ideally I'd like to have a lot more than that, but I want to see how much the cost per call was If it's somewhere in a and again, this is so hard to do from like just an overarching standpoint without understanding the full economic for somebody's offer, because what you can afford for a phone call is different depending on what you do for a living, how much your first sale is, et cetera. Yeah, I'm looking for cost per call and then from that point I'm looking for show up rate, like did they actually show up for the call? And then what was the close rate of the person on the telephone?

Speaker 1:

Does the person on the telephone have to be the person who's delivering the opportunity, delivering the deal? Nope. Or do you set up some kind of like business development call service?

Speaker 2:

Well, ideally that'd be an in-house rep. So if it wasn't you taking the call, if you're a solo pernure and you're not taking the call yourself, hopefully that's somebody that you are trying to train to be able to take calls or eventually take your position. Yes, I'm sure you could push this out to a call center. Absolutely, that could be a thing.

Speaker 1:

But, ideally.

Speaker 2:

If you're solo pernure, you're probably going to want to understand that and make most of the sales yourself before you move forward. Yeah, that's just me saying that Potentially, there's some limiting belief in there somewhere.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like it. So let's say, you run the ads, you're starting to get calls. Are there any industries that this doesn't work for?

Speaker 2:

It's not that I can think of. Maybe there's something that doesn't exist, or maybe there's something that is a no-no on an ad platform that you can't run ads to, but the idea of raising your hand to a marketplace and say, hey, that thing that you're looking to do, I can do that. You want to talk to me about it? That's all we're doing. We've talked about mechanics and all this sort of stuff a lot. The sauce is understanding the beliefs and identities of your market. Without understanding a lot of those, you're just gonna be doing paint by members, which will have some effect. You'll get some leads, but the idea with marketing is to be able to create better prospects, and the only way we can do that is if we punch them in the gut of their beliefs, their current constructs and the identity they have wrapped around, either themselves as it relates to your product or your product as it relates to the market. I hope that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

We gotta get it. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it a little bit and that's. And again, I'm using this podcasting thing just because it's what we do, but I think it'll give people a good feel. Cause I wanna put it, I wanna bring this into a real world scenario, right? Because, as a marketer, I look at this and I think it's just too easy. It's just too easy. It's too easy for, okay, I go, hey, I can solve this problem. So I'm gonna put an ad out there about this problem, and if you've got that problem, click this link. And now, all of a sudden, I'm having call after call after call. That just seems, knowing marketing and knowing sales, it just seems like, nah, that doesn't work, but I know it does work. So let's now. I think that I agree with you. I do think the key of what you're talking about is exactly the magic button, right? So, okay, let's go back Back to podcasts podcast service.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

All right, so whether, regardless of what your service is, I'm just using this because it's what I know.

Speaker 2:

Let's say it's podcast service.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna create a podcast for you front to back All the effort that it takes to do a show like this gets to be done for you. So talk to me now about what you were just speaking of, that emotional component, and how you get people to respond to that ad.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So the person who also wants to have a podcast out there somewhere. They believe something is lacking in their business, whether that's qualified conversations, whether that's enough leads, whatever the case may be. If we ask, why enough times? Why do you want a podcast? Well, because Monty told me I need one. Well, why is that important? Well, because everybody has a podcast. Why is that important?

Speaker 2:

If we did it enough, we would find out that whoever this person is who really wants to put themselves out, there is some level. I've overextended myself on promises. I feel a little bit shameful that it hasn't started happening yet. And my status, whether it's real or perceived by the people who know me the closest. It's terrible If we were to allow ourselves to go that deep. Most people make their decisions based out of some form of status. Okay.

Speaker 2:

So how this might look out in the wild. If I had a direct offer, I would call out who this was for. I would try to do it pretty elegantly. So instead of just saying are you a solopreneur who works 40 hours a week and wishes they can only work 20,? Whatever the case may be, I would get into a little bit of storytelling at the beginning of it and I would take a picture of what that person's life looks like. They're trying 15 different things. They feel like all of them is going to work. They're constantly on this emotional roller coaster and in the background they told their spouse and or their kids that everything's going to be fine, but in the known reality they have no runway whatsoever. So they need some sort of consistency in their life to be able to make sure that the promises they made on the back end, everything's going to be okay. Somewhere in your marketing you've got to tie that piece into it. Okay, and you can't do this by holding somebody's hand or trying to make them feel good. Yay, you know.

Speaker 1:

So what you're saying there is you're not selling a service, You're selling an emotion.

Speaker 2:

Correct. Yeah, I forget who the gentleman's name was. I think his last name is Christensen, and he wrote a thesis and the gist of it was in your marketplace, your product or service facilitates a job that needs to be done. So it's not your widget, it's the social, emotional and intellectual feeling that person has about accomplishing whatever it is you are going to help me accomplish. That's it. And then, oh hey, by the way, I have a podcast. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes, it does so, but you're saying, if I'm hearing it correctly, is that in the ads and what we're going to try and accomplish in the ad and then in that landing page, that sales funnel is. I want to pull out that emotion over your sense of significance. I want you to feel like a thought leader. I want you to feel good about yourself and what you're doing, but ultimately, it's even more than that it's about. I want you to feel successful in the end because you're providing for your family, you're providing a good, whatever it is that you're selling to your clients. That people feel good about you. It's an emotional construct and if I can get you to feel that you're saying, that is going to sell more than me going. If you've been interested in podcasting but don't have the time, I'll do it for you.

Speaker 2:

Right. No, you just not only that, but you just made yourself a commodity in one sentence. I would do the exact earlier, like the narrative you just walked through in terms of like I can make you feel successful, et cetera, et cetera. No, do the exact opposite. Show them the cost of not doing it. We are wired as human beings to run from pain. If you tell me everything's wonderful, oh, ok, well, I don't have to move, I guess we're designed to be pretty lazy. But if I show you a visceral picture of what it looks like and this isn't like you can trigger somebody's attention real quickly by telling them what the net benefit is that might draw them in. But right on the heels of that, you need to get pretty real about what their life looks like. They're like don't paint a rosy picture, paint a terrible picture, but make it real and let them know exactly what it's costing them from an emotional, a social and an intellectual standpoint. You got to show them what's going on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so can you quickly give me an example of that using this podcast idea? You're a solopreneur.

Speaker 2:

Well, how does?

Speaker 1:

that. Look how do I storyline that pain to get you to feel it and get you to want to solve it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it's the same we talked about just a little bit ago about the individual who's doing this. They are fully aware of all of the things they have available to them to get their message out there. They could do LinkedIn, they could do Facebook, they could do TikTok wheels, they could do all of these things. So I would portray that picture of time, energy resources and feeling like crap because you're getting to this place mentally and emotionally where you're about to give up because you don't believe anybody and none of it is actually real. So it gets to a fairly lonely place. Anybody who's been out in the marketplace to try to do their own thing knows that this place of hate to call it despair, but of despair is real. And if they can find somebody, hey, I feel, felt found. So I feel what you're feeling and then I found this thing, et cetera.

Speaker 2:

Again, I wouldn't even talk about podcasts, maybe in the title, just exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, and as soon as I say that, it depends on where they are, if you're making a direct offer, you're going to have to save podcasting somewhere. Know your industry really well. Who are you up against? What kind of stuff are they having them do that they don't want to do anymore. What stuff have they tried? Because it all boils back down to the fact that they really want this to work and it's not. And I feel like crap and my timeline is running out, et cetera. If you go online now, you're going to start reading ads and you're like damn it yeah.

Speaker 1:

So let me take a shot at it, so based on clients that I've worked with in the past and very familiar with solopreneurs and startups and stuff like that. So you're completely aware of all the things that you need to do from a marketing perspective, and there's a million of them that you can and probably already have done. The biggest problem that your face is that for you to do a deal, it takes a face to face conversation, and that's the rub. How do you get in front of people face to face so that you can have high value conversations that create opportunity? That's where people fall short in their marketing, but how do you weave in their problem?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah OK.

Speaker 1:

Their emotional problem right, yeah, yeah. Other than it being frustrating. I can have 100 conversations, but I can't close any deals. What you know, what I'm saying, I do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what that one was. My immediate gut reaction is you use the word free too many times. You got a bunch of free B-secrets on the phone, so stay away from that. Stay away from it all together.

Speaker 2:

Don't do anything for free, if you can get to a place where you don't take calls for free. Anyway, that's a whole other story. But if I were you, if this is a direct offer and you might even just want to say thinking of a podcast in 2024, and then I'd use some use kind of some ninja things. If it was on Facebook or if it was out in the wild, if you put it in quotation marks or put a question mark around it, it will read more of it. And then I would say think again. And I would go completely contrary.

Speaker 2:

I was like if you're reading this, you've probably already, and then just list them off, just like their bullet points, yeah. And then say how's that going for you? Because we already know. And then you can say, hey, let me take a stab at it. I've invested X amount of dollars and I've got this to show for it. I keep telling my wife that this is gonna happen. It doesn't. If I got to be honest with you, I'm wondering why I still do it. I Would get that visceral and that like Because that's the conversation they are having in their head when they have enough courage To have a real honest conversation with somebody. That's what it looks like.

Speaker 1:

It's really funny because At the beginning of the year, so I took the entire month, it basically took six weeks off of posting, only then no. Granted, I've been posting Monday through Friday on LinkedIn for three years. Okay, built up Close to 35,000 followers on LinkedIn. People are used to seeing me, I have an engaged following and stuff like that. So when I drop off six weeks, I've you know, I've had a lot of people that have messaged me. Hey, where?

Speaker 2:

are you?

Speaker 1:

Everything Okay. What's, yeah, missing your stuff, where you coming back? Right, which is all great. Right, because you create brand awareness and stuff like, and you create, you know, conversations, but you create conversations in a sense of, if you stop, people come in right to do that. Right, but my first post back Said I've decided that posting on LinkedIn is useless, okay, and then I walked through why? Right, and it was that, and I had more people comment on that post than I've had in a long time and it's because so many people feel Exactly yeah, why right.

Speaker 2:

You know, look, I think that any, any medium can get the job done, so long as we are, we're getting into the icky's of people's lives, because that's what we're solving. We just happen to have this widget that facilitates that. But we got to stop like pandering to Nobody benefits. The business owner doesn't benefit, the market doesn't benefit, that a real, actual Category leader does not emerge that way, etc, etc. You know Nike's not, you know, look. Anyway, I could go on forever about Building your brand and running ads at the same time. You can do both same time.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I'd love to pursue that more honestly because I, you know, on one hand it's, it is a different way of thinking and on, and you'll have some people, I'm sure there's going to be some people that will listen to this podcast and go that's disingenuous, that's disin, a disingenuous way of marketing, because you're just simply pulling on people's emotions and it's not it may not be the value. You just got them to make an emotional decision, right. So Speak to that. Speak to that. What's your thoughts about that? For the person that's sitting there, the naysayer going, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't have a comment, I wouldn't talk about that. Look, I completely get why people may feel like that and I'm not even going to start to pretend that there isn't some Tom Fulverine. It takes place in the marketing world because there absolutely is. But if you can absolutely solve somebody's problem with your product and or your service, all of us human beings are wired to not make decisions until we know something is on the line, so we can take marketing out of it, and I would, I would venture to say to that similar person Well, how are the rest of your relationships in your life?

Speaker 2:

Somewhere we got to get into the icky's. If we're trying to get to where we want to go again, I'm predicating all of this based on the idea that your product or your service can actually get them to where they want to go. I Think the best and most loving friendships are the ones who are saying hey, monty, I See what you can't see, and then tell you where you're headed if you keep going down that path. If you want to, by all means, here's what it's going to look like. If you don't, I have an option for you that looks like this. We just get an opportunity to do that in the business. We're not doing anything much different than that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes sense that yeah, I love that answer because You're coming from a place of concern and care. It's you know. I have a solution for you. It doesn't mean that it has to work for every single person the exact same way. But I know as a whole, this Will be helpful for you and will fix the problem that you have that's it.

Speaker 2:

You know, and you said, I come from a place of care, I Hope that it does. And then there are people who are just solely focused on the commerce side of things, and I'm okay with that too. It just better work If you want it to be an empathetic thing and you want to develop this huge bond like a one-on-one With your audience. There are plenty of influencers who do that sort of thing. But if you're just in the commerce of it, you never are the face of anything. You can do the exact same thing which your product of service better do what we say it does. But you can do both, man, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so let's take it a different direction now. Let's say I've Determined the problem I solve For who. I've determined the emotional component of getting into the icky's, like you said. I love that. I Understand why they feel the way that they do.

Speaker 1:

I understand how they're gonna feel after they've been using my product or service. I've gotten a single page website out there. That's a funnel, that kind of washed through. Hey, this is who I am. I know that you have this problem. Because I have the problem. I'm relating to you its empathy. I'm calling on your Emotional well-being now getting into those icky's. And I've got the offer and it's ready to go. I'm running the ads. We're having people flow through that. Let's say. Let's say it's a higher price offer, so it may not be something that they're buying there. It may not be something that they're buying there. It requires a face-to-face conversation. Can you still use it for that?

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, ideally, you'd like for this to be a high ticket item three to five grand or more. Yeah, oh yeah, come on this one particular funnel that I worked on. From 2019, 2020, we would run literally just a Facebook ad to a booked fall, booked call funnel and the very first transaction on the very first call was 16,000 out, and then the one on the back end was much higher than that.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, absolutely, you're not saying, you're saying sixteen thousand dollars total. You're not talking monthly.

Speaker 2:

No, not monthly. You again, we can get into the metrics of economics of somebody's offer, but the the price point was sixteen thousand dollars. How you, how or if you split that up is again totally dependent on your business, how you operate cash flow, etc.

Speaker 1:

But yes, can you do a monthly product a month? Yeah just as long as it's over a five thousand dollar offer is what you're saying.

Speaker 2:

So here's. The thing is that you need to be able to at least cover the cost of your traffic. If we're gonna run some ads, we at least have to be able to cover the cost of your of your traffic. This is what's considered, maybe a front-end acquisition, so a lot of people will just break even on the front. But if this is a solar maneuver, you're probably gonna be in the fractional something, or rather, yes, probably gonna be multiple thousand dollars. This is totally fine, actually, probably preferred.

Speaker 1:

So again back to the email list yep. So we're running, we're running the ads. We've driving people to our website.

Speaker 2:

How do we?

Speaker 1:

build up that email list.

Speaker 2:

So every time they've given you there, because if they got a book of calls you, they're gonna give you their name, email address, phone number, if not more than that. So now, voila, we have a list. Now it's in our database, in our CRM, and then if you have people who work within your organization, they are moving that person forward within the CRM. But yeah, if you're going just to looking at call, as soon as they look the call, you have their email. This brings up a good point. Um, nobody remembers anything. So you have to do a good job of getting these people to remember a that they've booked a call with you and be why it's important that they show up. This is that's all part of it as well, but that's the answer. Your question. That's how you have the email list. Is they put the call?

Speaker 1:

So there's more of a workflow beyond that, obviously, that you know it's reminder of the call After the post call, you know follow-up type type of thing that all works into this. Talk to me about influencer marketing around. This, then is are you also Advising people that they can go find people who do have very large email lists and Basically create a program or referral program of some kind that if they would market it to their email list? Is that easy, is that hard?

Speaker 2:

Um, I Don't do a lot of it, but if somebody has a good relationship with somebody who has an audience or a list, that person is willing to give you access to that list. Absolutely, absolutely. The more synergy and crossover, the better. Meaning. Like they're, my service and your service are very similar. In fact, your, your service might even be a benefit to the service I already provide to just make sure there's synergy there. But, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so let's talk about the platforms. You know, click funnels, kajabi, as I know that's. Those are two off the top of my head. I mean, I'm sure there's hundreds of them, should you? Build your own website using WordPress, as it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2:

I mean, again, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish long-term I. But I think if you just wanted to start capturing name, email address and phone number, booking appointments, any software like Quick funnels, kajabi you know, please understand that again, I'm a strategist. I don't spend a lot of time inside of these things much anymore, so all the nuances might be, you know, out of my pay grade, but they will all do the same thing and if you're not looking to build out this giant ecosystem, you literally can start with just a landing page and just an email capture. I Think that if you are going to do this for the long term and I should have started with this Don't start a business unless you're gonna plan on being it for a very long time, because you're gonna put up some work into it. So, yeah, if you just want to name email address, phone number, any sort of those softwares will work wonders.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic Um when you set up the ads, whether it's in your specialized in Facebook right.

Speaker 2:

So I said, yes, I like that because it gives enough time to be able to tell stories, to be able to like Get granular, to be able to like really meet the audience where you are. You can do that both with video and you can also do that with the ad copy itself. A.

Speaker 1:

Whole lot of other things.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yep.

Speaker 1:

So can a solopreneur or a small business owner that doesn't have a team Do Facebook ads on their own successfully, or is it one of those things that you really should get a professional?

Speaker 2:

I think that depends on what you want to be good at. So if you want to consider yourself a really good marketer who also is this really good other thing Then yeah, do it yourself. There's gonna be a learning curve. I just want to go ahead and put that out there. Every, every really good Marketing teacher is gonna tell you there's gonna be a tax. Perry Marshall calls it a stupidity tax. You're gonna pay it, so as as you're learning, just depends on what you want to do. You know, um, and I'm guilty of this month, you know this man like I, I have all of her.

Speaker 2:

I have what I do for a living, so everything that I see looks like a business opportunity, because I know how to market and sell it. So sometimes I need to take my own advice, and just what you're gonna.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it definitely can be difficult, as a marketing person, you know, and an entrepreneur right. You think I could make that work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, give me 90 days.

Speaker 1:

No, it's. It's like a curse as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just I want people to understand that this whole thing is just a series of conversions, from the very first one to the actual enrollment and onboarding that client. So get good at understanding where those conversion points are and don't try to make the next one until you make the first one. You're not trying to make the sale on an ad, we're trying to get them to click to the next page.

Speaker 1:

So just, yeah, so the first and most primary thing that any business needs to do is understand the emotional component of why somebody is going to buy your product or your service, and their entire strategy Entirely needs to be focused and shaped around that single concept.

Speaker 2:

It's it and it should get.

Speaker 2:

It should go from start to finish, meaning like that story arc should start at the ad level and it should finish that enrollment and even then, if I'm being honest, it still keeps going because you're gonna want to retain that person and and or get referrals, so the customer journey Doesn't end.

Speaker 2:

Hope that makes sense. You can't make, you cannot make a change at, like, an email level that isn't gonna mess up either the ad level or the sales call. So this whole thing, the whole narrative, has to stay the same and, like I know we'll have a certain amount of time, but like that's why I said identity earlier, because every time they make behaviors of their past identity that has led to failure, you remind them of that. So it could be so much as like calling it out as a person's name. Like that's how a Henry would behave, that's not how a John John being the idea of where they want to be, henry being where they don't want to be you continually remind them of that. I hope I'm. I know we only have a little bit of time. You gotta maintain that the entire way through.

Speaker 1:

We've got another five minutes. Dig into that a little bit.

Speaker 2:

You call these messaging buckets. So I'm trying to like talk about this. This is like who they want to be, so in their mind, where they don't let anybody in. They have this vision of themselves. They're really too afraid to tell people about it because they're afraid they're gonna get make fun of or some sort of something or other, so they downplay it. They don't live from their most authentic person. I use the term fig leaf. They wear fig leaf all the time. There's a person that we see and then there is a person that they believe themselves to be. Our job is to talk about the person that they don't want anybody to see so from, and tell them what it is costing them the whole way through.

Speaker 2:

One of the best things that I've seen from this is Andre Schapp wrote probably one of my favorite markers. He's a wonderful storyteller and he had a process called Frank versus Matt, and his entire marketing campaign is how he used to be like Frank, to the point where on his landing page, he had an image of this person, the way that this person dressed, and then all of the behaviors, and then the opposite side was Matt. Matt was a successful online entrepreneur. These are all the character traits that he had. So that narrative plays through from start until finish, remind them of what they are trying to escape and where they are going. That's got I mean seriously, it's got to be from start to finish.

Speaker 1:

Even on the sales. That's really really good.

Speaker 2:

Even on the sales yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, okay. And again, what you and I know as marketers is we've seen that work, we've seen it function and we can do, we can explain it and it sounds very easy putting it into practice and taking it and building out your own personalized you know story brand, if you would. And creating that funnel is a challenge, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It absolutely is. I don't want to like this comes with nearly 20 years of experience and I've tell people all the time like so if I start with something, we're starting at a really, really, really good place and it's still my not work you know, yeah, there's a really good chance it is going to, but we got it.

Speaker 2:

like I said, it's a series of conversions. Most of the time it is a, the calls are a little too expensive and they're not showing up. Just giving people a heads up. If you're going to do something like this, that's typically where it falls off. So everything that I said in the beginning.

Speaker 1:

People don't show up for the call, even though they go through it and click that they want to do it.

Speaker 2:

That is 100% correct. Yeah, I feel like I got to say this too. So most people will do the offer and then they'll try to do the majority of the unpacking, meaning the majority of the reason why on the back end of the opt-in Meaning. Make it really really easy for me to give you an email, just some phone number, which I think is incredibly important because you got to validate an offer right and then they do the reason why on a 15 email series or et cetera. I am of the nature that once we have validated that offer, let's do all of that.

Speaker 2:

Reason why on the front end, you can still do the subpaid ads so you can build brand. You can walk somebody from level one all the way to level five before they get on the phone call, so that they've seen you enough times that they like it. You have talked enough about their problems. You've already proven that you can do this. Again, remember, the marketing is to create better prospects. Make it easy for the sales people. If I were going to do a campaign from start to finish, that's how I would do it. I would test it on your email list and then I would build out that narrative story and I would do it online through ads. First, about a time you did get on the call. There's very little sales resistance and typically your cost for everything comes down.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome, yeah, and this is exactly why you know you say, well, you can. You know there's a what'd you say stupid cost.

Speaker 2:

It's a stupidity tax. Yeah, that's not mine, that's the. That's very Marshall, it's accurate though.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it truly is. I mean, it does, on one level, really take a pro and somebody that you're, somebody that's been like, has said been doing this for 20 years. It can seem so easy. That's the guy that you want, yeah.

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